Actor and Director Wardell Julius Clark interviews Chuck Smith, the director of the Goodman Theatre production of August Wilson’s Gem of the Ocean. This interview was recorded on February 6, 2022. At the time, Clark was serving as the understudy for the role of Citizen Barlow, originally played by Sharif Atkins.
Clark has since taken over the role of Citizen Barlow from Atkins, performing since February 11th and will continue playing the role of Citizen through closing this Sunday, February 27th, 2022.
Chuck Smith was the dramaturg for the world premiere of Gem of the Ocean in 2003 directed by Marion McClinton. Wardell Julius Clark previously understudied Citizen Barlow and performed in the Court Theatre production directed by Ron OJ Parson in 2015.
Wardell Julius Clark:
So first things first – In 2003 you dramaturg’d the world premiere of Gem of the Ocean?
Chuck Smith:
Yes.
Wardell:
Had you met August before that?
Chuck:
Yeah. I had worked with August, uh, I mean actually worked with him in ‘97 when I [directed] Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom [at the Goodman Theatre]. He came to the preview and uh, you know, we got this long preview [period]. He came to the first preview and stayed…The whole preview period and worked with me. You know, during the day, you know, in the mornings I came up in the morning. And we go, I show him the South Side, you know?
Wardell:
Oh, wow. Yeah. Showed him around.
Chuck:
And that’s when I got to know him as a, as a dude. And so, and we’ve been, from that point on… I would consider us friends.
Wardell:
Friends?
Chuck:
I, wasn’t not like a, a go-to Guy – He would say hey Chuck,
Wardell:
You want do this show? Yeah. I got a new script. Yeah. That wasn’t the deal yet.
Chuck:
No, no, no.
Chuck:
But he did [that with me], and I was real proud of the fact that when, years ago, whenCongo square first came to town…you know, it was scout[ing]. They didn’t know what they wanted to be.
Wardell:
Right. Right.
Chuck:
And, uh, Derek and some other cats came to my office at Columbia College. And they said: now we dadadada. I said, well, how’d y’all happen to come to me? [They said] we were with August, we met August Wilson in Africa. And we told him that we were looking for some places to go, and Chicago was on our list. He said, well, if you go to Chicago, see Chuck Smith. August Wilson told him that.
Wardell:
In Africa?
Chuck:
In Africa.
Wardell:
Wow. That’s crazy.
Chuck: Yeah. So I always say, wow, you know, August Wilson is telling people to come see me. That’s pretty good.
Wardell:
That’s pretty. Yeah. That’s great. You might not be his go-to guy, but that–you can’t discount that.
Chuck:
I’ll take that.
Wardell:
Yeah, absolutely. Cause [Congo Square] was getting started and they didn’t know where they was gonna set up at.
Chuck:
They didn’t know where they wanna settle. You know? When Ma Rainey’s Black Bottom did open in 1997…He sent me this lovely note saying that the production was beautiful and it was the best one that he had seen. And I… I hang my hat on that one.
Wardell:
Yeah, of course. Especially if that was your first [Wilson] you had done here. Right?
Chuck:
The first one I had done. But he helped me, you know?
Wardell:
Right, right. Cause he was here.
Chuck:
He was there. I like to tell people every now and then I say, well, he was my assistant director,
Wardell:
Director August assisted me on his show. (laughs) And then how you get, how did you get to dramaturging Gem [of the Ocean], in 2003? Cause you was here by this point?
Chuck:
I was here. I was here. And uh, I wanted to be in a room.
Wardell:
You know, that’s how I get most jobs –that’s how I got this job. He got an associate director… How can I get in the room for the play?
Chuck:
How can I get in the room? And so, uh, I went to Marion [director Marion McClinton]–I called Marion and I said, hey Marion, let me be your assistant director. He says, we got all the Congo square kids. They [had] their system. He said, we don’t have a dramaturg. You want to dramaturg? I said, yeah.
Wardell:
Yeah. I can find information. Yeah.
Chuck:
I can do that. That’s how I got on.
Wardell:
And I remember that production [was running at] almost at four hours, right?
Chuck:
It was long. And uh, and it was basically, you know, when, when it was here, it was a work in progress. You know, it was, that was the first time it was up [on its feet]. And you know how, I don’t know if you know, August did spot to spot, [Regional theatre, to regional theatre, to regional theatre.
Wardell:
Right. Cause it was here then The Mark Taper Forum, before it went to Broadway. Yeah.
Chuck:
So that’s, that’s how he worked this stuff. He stopped at a regional house. Was another spot to fix the process.
Wardell:
We actually got that original script [Gem of the Ocean] cuz they sent it one of the understudies when we first started rehearsing. So I, and I was like, send it to me. I just wanna see, I know there’s some gems in there that like, you know, was cut because the time, but –
Chuck:
Oh yes. A lot of stuff. Uh, I remember one, one section in uh, in act two when, when Citizen goes to get Selig. They had in there something that, that it took only, it took 15, 20 minutes [for him to catch up to Selig’s wagon]. So whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, You gotta take longer than that. You know? He said, oh yeah, you’re right. But when he switched it-–
Wardell:
Dramaturgy—
Chuck:
—Dramaturgy—
Wardell:
Yeah. Yeah. You’re like, you gotta take longer than to get [there]. Just looking at the map of Pittsburgh where he gotta get to.
Chuck:
There’s no way. No way. So I went to it, at the Broadway run. I took this lady. I said, look – We get to this part. I’ll let you know, cause this is the part I worked on.
Wardell:
I’m responsible for this.
Chuck:
I’m responsible for this. And it never happened. I tell her say, I’ll give you a nudge. And she said, well, what happened to the nudge? I said, they cut it.
Wardell:
They cut it all together. They cut it all. They got rid of it. I was curious about that cuz I, I think about the timeframe cause also Citizen is on foot.
Chuck:
He’s on foot!
Wardell:
And Selig got a wagon, a horse drawn wagon. So he’s gotta be hoofing it double the time and still.
Chuck:
Yeah, yeah!
Wardell:
That makes sense. But it never came up when you saw it. Yeah. I, I saw um, I saw final preview of it on Broadway. I met August the next night or just outside, you know, just me being young. But I was blown away by that production. It became my favorite thing.
Chuck:
I think I saw a preview too. I didn’t see the final preview. But I know. I think it was a preview. It had grown, but in those days I was more fascinated with the city of bones than I was the play. In my mind, if you don’t do a good city of bones, you don’t do a good play.
Wardell:
I mean, you know, I learned so much from you Chuck, but I feel that way about most scripts that I read. Like if you can’t nail the climactic moment –
Chuck:
Yeah. Yeah. But –
Wardell:
But that’s not [the climactic moment].
Chuck:
That’s not it. This is a good play. And the city of bones is a scene in the play. It’s an important scene. Yes. But it is not the play. The script itself and the contents of the play itself, is much more important than the city of bones. He could actually redact the city of bones out…And you’d have a good play.
Wardell:
You still have a good play. Yeah. Even if we just heard that he went and then he came back. That would be it still would live up to [being a good play]. He has a whole play packed with such a powerful punch too. And like you said at first day of rehearsal, like, what they talking about is what’s happening right now in 2022. It is literally the same thing.
Chuck:
Yes. It’s the same thing.
Wardell:
So have you done it other than at the college, before you did it here?
Chuck:
Yes, I’ve done it. I did a production of it in, in Phoenix. For the Black Theatre Troupe, a non equity company in 2008. And then the precursor to this show was done at the University of Illinois, pre-pandemic. October, 2019. And it was that, it was that show. Again, I was, I’m still fascinated with the city. I got the gig because I sold what I was going to do, do a city of bones.
And what I wanted to do was use dancers to interpret the city of bones.
Wardell:
I remember you saying that.
Chuck:
They, they really went [for it], they really loved that idea and I got permission to do it and all that. And, uh, the very first tick I realized I didn’t need the dances.
Chuck:
I didn’t have [projections]. I was going solely with my dancers. But the [projection designer] hit on lots. Robert Perry threw some stuff up on the [wall] you know, and it was taking focus. The attention was on the wall and not the dancers. I have to tell him, no, you gotta cut that out. Cause I want em to focus on the dancers.
Wardell:
Yes. Splitting the audience focus.
Chuck:
I said, wait a minute. I don’t need this dance. Throw some shit up on the wall.
Wardell:
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And, no, we don’t need that. I’m glad it was ideal.
Chuck:
It was too late [in the process]. But also down there, remember, like when I worked with you as a student…
Wardell:
Yeah. Yeah. We worked together in ‘06 I think it was.
Chuck:
I learn a lot from students. They ask questions. I mean relevant questions. They don’t pretend to know it all, they’re asking you.
Wardell:
Yeah. Cause we expect you to know it.
Chuck:
And these kids were asking me all these questions about the character, da, da. And I’m thinking, wait a minute. Awe shit. That’s when I realized the play was as strong as it was. Because of those kids!
Wardell:
Because of the questions they were asking about the characters?
Chuck:
Yes. And I said, oh wow. I gotta do this at the Goodman.
Wardell:
Gotta bring it back.
Chuck:
Yeah. And I told Bob, Bob Falls to come down and check it out – That’s his alma mater. He came opening night and here we are.
Wardell:
Yeah. And I mean, now we are open.
Chuck:
And it’s a good show.
Wardell:
It’s a GOOD show. You talked at first rehearsal about the city of bones and how you could just do it with lights and projections and stuff. But you also talked about the love story [in the play] that was highlighted for you in that production at the college.
Chuck:
I discovered the love story. That Solly and Aunt Ester are deeply in love. It’s not just flirtation.
Wardell:
Deeply in love. They mean it.
Chuck:
And you know, oh, wait a minute. You know, these are, these are senior citizens. These are no kids.
Wardell:
No. You see elders, it means something different. [You thought] we should highlight that, lift that up.
Chuck:
Yes. We should understand that. I mean, I didn’t get that in any production I had seen or had done before. I said, well, in this one, those two people [are] in love, they love each other.
Wardell:
Yeah. They [the audience] do know that, they pick up on that. Right. I mean, each one of their scenes, we are, we are so deep—even that goodbye, we’re so deeply invested in the Aunt Ester//Solly relationship in a way that I agree we haven’t seen in any other productions. I think knowing what we know – spoiler alert – knowing what happens to Solly at the end of the play, I think audience-wise that [love story] grabs us even more.
Chuck:
Because we feel her.
Wardell:
Exactly. Exactly. We can understand that differently.
Chuck:
It ain’t just Aunt Ester going over, looking over at uh –
Wardell:
A friend –
Chuck:
Attending a body –
Wardell:
No, it’s her lover’s body. And I feel that so differently in this production than I have in previous productions.
Chuck:
I wanted to make sure that was highlighted.
Wardell:
It is. I think everything plays great. I also just wanted to talk about the passing of the baton that we know happens between Solly and Citizen. That’s in the script. But your choice, which from first time you said it, I was like – oh my God. Your choice to do that [passing of the baton] with Aunt Ester and Black Mary in that way. Which I’ve never seen, that’s your idea?
Chuck:
It was. That was one of the two questions I always had asked August when I was a dramaturg in the original production. Hey, what you gon’ do with the city of bones, and does [Black Mary] take over [for Aunt Ester]? Those questions to me were never really answered. I mean, we do get the history of Aunt Ester in the passing of the play. We understand that. But you know, the fact that [Black Mary] does take over sooner or later, I wanted [Wilson] to show us. But he never put that in there. So I went and did it. And then I sent a tape of the last rehearsal that we did in the rehearsal room to Constanza [Wilson]. [I said] hey, look, is this cool? And she says, yes, I like that. I couldn’t… I couldn’t just do it without checking in with her.
Wardell:
Absolutely. No, I, I just think it’s so great. Like, because we have that masculine representative of Citizen taking over for Solly, going back to Alabama, that’s so clear. But we don’t see the lineage of Aunt Ester, the history she holds, being passed down.
Chuck:
And that’s what the play is about! Yeah. That’s right. You know, but if you ain’t grieving, if you’re not mourning, how are you gonna give it to somebody else?
Wardell:
Give it to somebody else! Yeah. So especially at this moment and she said, I’m, I don’t know how much longer I got, she has all these lines that she’s at the end of her journey of Aunt Ester. And I always think too, cuz Wilson people know that she dies in King Hedley right. Like, you know, she Aunt Ester.
Chuck:
There’s nobody after that.
Wardell:
And there’s nobody after that. And so I always try, like my dramaturgical mind of the whole cycle is that it’s actually Black Mary who’s died in King Hedley and she doesn’t have a daughter because we get Old Joe [Black Mary’s son] in Radio Golf. Yeah. If I pull back I can make those dramaturgical connections. But your production and you doing that in this show, it clicks for me so well, I’m just like, well, yeah, that’s the next Aunt Ester up until the eighties.
Chuck:
Well that’s what I wanted. Cause that, that was the question I had for August. She takes over, right? But he never answers [it]. He never really answered the question about [The city of bones], you know, he always said, I’ll get to it. And he did exactly what is supposed to be done. Leave it up to the interpretation of the Director. We can do it a lot of different ways. And I think that’s beautiful.
Wardell:
[The city of bones] it’s like our magic, it’s our ancestral Black magic. There’s the hoodoo, and there’s many ways to do what’s happening. It’s always funny to me when you talk to people and they’re just like, well, did she put something in his tea? I’m like, no, we do this. We have done this for thousands of years. If you come in with open heart and willing, like, we can take you there. Like we just gotta believe if you believe.
Chuck:
That’s it. That’s it.
Wardell:
My last question is, as a, a director, we all know we get the thing up and we are looking at it and we’re like, Ooh, I could adjust one thing if I had another day of rehearsal. When you look at [this show] what’s that one thing? It might not be anything.
Chuck:
This one I’ll leave alone. I would leave this one.
Wardell:
I think that’s a great place to be at. Our perfectionist brains are always like tweaking. It is what it is.
Chuck:
Yeah and I tweaked, I did. I made lots of tweaks [during] the previews. And then I leave it alone. It’s been on.
Wardell:
Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure being back in the room with you, Chuck.
Chuck:
Hey you the future, man.
Wardell:
I – I’ll take it.
Chuck:
You gotta carry this stuff on.
Wardell:
I did nine shows in three years and then I was like, I want to act again because acting makes me a better director, but I can’t do anything. Then this play came up and I was like, I get to go back in the room with Chuck? On my favorite play?! And my favorite character! Like I am a young Black man from Alabama—my granddaddy was born in Opelika [Alabama, where the character of Citizen Barlow is from].
Chuck:
You – Oh, wow.
Wardell:
Yeah. All of those connections, like, you know, I was raised and born in Birmingham.
Chuck:
Yes.
Wardell:
It has always been personal, just from hearing it, I’m like, oh, these are my people. Literally my people. This is a great way to go back in. And I then get to do it every day. I don’t mind being an understudy, either.
Chuck:
No, no, no, no, no, no. Ain’t nothing wrong with understudying.
Wardell:
Not at all. It is a very challenging job. And I am grateful to know that I knew the role before I got here. So like the opportunity came up I was like this is what I can do.
Chuck:
I told you guys down there my first, my first gig was understudying at the Goodman Theatre. First time somebody gave me money to do this, was understudying here. At the Goodman.
Wardell:
And this is my first time ever working here. As an actor or director, I’ve never worked at the Goodman until this production.
Chuck:
Oh, wow. Well, good. I’m glad you got in on this one.
Wardell:
Me too. Me too. And it feels right. It actually feels, it feels right. That this is the one that’s my first one here. It feels real good. And now we off to the races.
Chuck:
All right.
Featured photo by Liz Lauren.
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